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<head><meta charset="utf-8"><title>sprints · t-compiler/wg-polonius · Zulip Chat Archive</title></head>
<h2>Stream: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/index.html">t-compiler/wg-polonius</a></h2>
<h3>Topic: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html">sprints</a></h3>

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<a name="239090665"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239090665" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239090665">(May 17 2021 at 13:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>So <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="125250">@Wesley Wiser</span> was asking about our experiences with sprints</p>



<a name="239090738"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239090738" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239090738">(May 17 2021 at 13:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>I would say that they've been a big success, the biggest problem is them not hapenning more</p>



<a name="239090775"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239090775" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239090775">(May 17 2021 at 13:42)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116113">@lqd</span> or <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="204115">@Amanda Stjerna</span> can share from their perpsective</p>



<a name="239090783"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239090783" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239090783">(May 17 2021 at 13:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>the way we did it was:</p>



<a name="239090788"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239090788" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Wesley Wiser <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239090788">(May 17 2021 at 13:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>It looks like you've been much more successful than we were with the shrinkmem sprint <span aria-label="smile" class="emoji emoji-1f642" role="img" title="smile">:smile:</span></p>



<a name="239090799"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239090799" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239090799">(May 17 2021 at 13:42)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>4 hours a day, for 1 week</li>
</ul>



<a name="239090821"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239090821" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239090821">(May 17 2021 at 13:42)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>we had some goals beforehand</li>
</ul>



<a name="239090875"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239090875" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239090875">(May 17 2021 at 13:43)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>we used the sprint to keep context, because polonius is complex and hard to hold in your head</li>
</ul>



<a name="239090899"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239090899" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239090899">(May 17 2021 at 13:43)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>this was a core group of committed folks, not so much a way to recruit new people</li>
</ul>



<a name="239090935"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239090935" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239090935">(May 17 2021 at 13:43)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="116009">nikomatsakis</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler.2Fwg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239090821">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<ul>
<li>we had some goals beforehand</li>
</ul>
</blockquote>
<p>did we? maybe not. I mean we sort of did just because polonius generally has a kind of roadmap</p>



<a name="239091109"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239091109" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Wesley Wiser <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239091109">(May 17 2021 at 13:44)</a>:</h4>
<p>Were the goals results focused or more focused on a specific activity?</p>



<a name="239091146"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239091146" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239091146">(May 17 2021 at 13:44)</a>:</h4>
<p>I am trying to remember, I thikn one thing we did was declare some things <em>out of scope</em></p>



<a name="239091159"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239091159" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239091159">(May 17 2021 at 13:44)</a>:</h4>
<p>for example, we knew we wanted to focus on correctness, no performance</p>



<a name="239091177"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239091177" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239091177">(May 17 2021 at 13:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think our goal was to push to the point where we had the complete rules written out and implemented</p>



<a name="239091189"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239091189" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239091189">(May 17 2021 at 13:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>we didn't get there, but that's what we were shooting for</p>



<a name="239091231"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239091231" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239091231">(May 17 2021 at 13:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>we got the rules all written out, I think there remains some work around impl, there are some PRs I'm still slowling reviewing</p>



<a name="239091237"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239091237" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Wesley Wiser <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239091237">(May 17 2021 at 13:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>("Make something work" with the assumption being you'd figure out how to do that along the way or more like "Implement feature x" within the overall roadmap of getting to result <code>y</code>)</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239116879" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239116879">(May 17 2021 at 16:08)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="125250">@Wesley Wiser</span> I think we had goals more like "we'll figure it out"</p>



<a name="239120323"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239120323" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239120323">(May 17 2021 at 16:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm not sure how less successful the shrinkmem sprint was compared to the polonius sprints ? it could be interesting to compare in what ways you thought the rustc one was quote/unquote unsuccessful (was it in the results, organization, participation, and so on ?)</p>
<p>I can tell they were different in a couple ways:</p>
<ul>
<li>there were no themes for the polonius sprints, compared to say "shrinking memory usage"; of course it's understandable that a theme would be necessary to focus the work, given how exponentially broader rustc is compared to polonius</li>
<li>the number of participants could be a factor, but I don't think so given how sprints are applied in similar fashion in "hack weeks" or game jams</li>
<li>there were some very concrete pieces of work to do, known beforehand, which mostly needed 1) execution (which was the point of clearing our calendars and having the time available to do so), or 2) discussion / group synchronisation to unblock specific topics and pieces of work</li>
</ul>



<a name="239120892"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239120892" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239120892">(May 17 2021 at 16:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>knowing what to do beforehand, or having a list of topics to pick from, was important (at least to me) in that it would not take away from the sprint time to figure these out</p>



<a name="239121794"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239121794" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239121794">(May 17 2021 at 16:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>differentiating between the results-based tasks and activity-based tasks is tough for me on some of these, because the difference can be subtle for smaller tasks like "our goal is to complete this activity"</p>



<a name="239122292"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239122292" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239122292">(May 17 2021 at 16:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>there was a mix of both I feel, but also a mix of concrete tasks that a given person was familiar with, and knew how to tackle; and others with more unknowns, more explorative, or requiring analysis</p>



<a name="239122838"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239122838" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239122838">(May 17 2021 at 16:46)</a>:</h4>
<p>(of course nothing was set in stone, and some new unexpected things were discovered, and achieved during the sprints themselves :)</p>



<a name="239123420"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239123420" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239123420">(May 17 2021 at 16:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>maybe another difference could be that the polonius sprints were a natural progression of the roadmap and regular, day to day work (albeit infrequent). I don't think the vast majority of participants in the shrinkmem sprint work on reducing rustc memory usage all the time, while for the WG the sprints were more "business as usual" -- and maybe in that context, having a list of tasks to pick from could be even more useful (and also arguably a big factor in how successful they were)</p>



<a name="239124069"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239124069" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239124069">(May 17 2021 at 16:55)</a>:</h4>
<p>as I didn't have the time to participate in the shrinkmem sprint ( <span aria-label="cry" class="emoji emoji-1f622" role="img" title="cry">:cry:</span> ) I wouldn't be able to contrast the two more, so hopefully the above helps a bit. Don't hesitate to ask questions <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="125250">@Wesley Wiser</span> if you have any, and I can also sift through our logs for more details</p>



<a name="239124702"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239124702" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239124702">(May 17 2021 at 16:59)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="125250">@Wesley Wiser</span> <span aria-label="point up" class="emoji emoji-1f446" role="img" title="point up">:point_up:</span></p>



<a name="239124874"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239124874" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Wesley Wiser <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239124874">(May 17 2021 at 17:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>This is super great, thanks for the info everyone!! <span aria-label="smile" class="emoji emoji-1f642" role="img" title="smile">:smile:</span></p>



<a name="239125169"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239125169" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239125169">(May 17 2021 at 17:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>any time :)</p>



<a name="239144829"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239144829" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> tm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239144829">(May 17 2021 at 19:16)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="116113">lqd</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler.2Fwg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239124069">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>as I didn't have the time to participate in the shrinkmem sprint</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Busy shrinking stdarch that week <span aria-label="smile" class="emoji emoji-1f642" role="img" title="smile">:smile:</span>? I thought of it as part of shrinkmem sprint, even it took a while longer to reach rustc: <a href="https://perf.rust-lang.org/compare.html?start=ff34b919075f35a1787659e9c448a34b06bab8de&amp;end=881c1ac408d93bb7adaa3a51dabab9266e82eee8&amp;stat=max-rss">https://perf.rust-lang.org/compare.html?start=ff34b919075f35a1787659e9c448a34b06bab8de&amp;end=881c1ac408d93bb7adaa3a51dabab9266e82eee8&amp;stat=max-rss</a></p>



<a name="239146262"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints/near/239146262" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> lqd <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/186049-t-compiler/wg-polonius/topic/sprints.html#239146262">(May 17 2021 at 19:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>those were nice wins <span aria-label="tada" class="emoji emoji-1f389" role="img" title="tada">:tada:</span> <br>
(to answer the question/joke: I usually have to take a vacation week from $dayjob to work on the sprint :)</p>



<hr><p>Last updated: Aug 07 2021 at 22:04 UTC</p>
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